Okay, first of all about the testing. Has the team plaeyd K Mod2 through on hardest difficulty ? I tried and listen what I have to say. (Well you don't have to. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] ) Before I start ranting, let me tell that I have played (normal) Hexen through and played the K mod 2 almost through with Fighter on medium difficulty. (THat damn bug before Korax [img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img] ) Also I have a mage facing the second heresiarch and a cleric facing the first hereasiarch both on medium difficulty (in Korax Mod2). ------------------------------------------------- This on hardest difficulty.... Okay first I played as a mage and scrolled seven portals and it's bonus level nicely as well shadow wood with its death wyvern. Then I finally face the heresiarch. After you beat it like hell and it starts summoning heresiarch and dark bishops as you might know. Well in hardest difficulty the enemies have speed boost, right ? So My quest gets stuck when the heresiarch is casting repeatedly the protection field, throwing those bouncing fireballs and summoning heresiarchs (Multiple ones !) and dark bishops all the time ! Fear NOT ! I took my best shot and spent more than 25 health potions and 5 mystic urns trying to take the RIGHT heresiarch down. Well I took one heresiarch accidently but it wasn't the right one (and yes, I was avare of it that it wasn't the right one). So my quest didn't go anywhere while the real one was casting all the time so it was impossible to nail it. Finally I got bored and my interest slipped and the result was death. Fear thy not still ! I took a heresiarch with me ! Unfortunately it wasn't the right one still ! [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img] The right one summoned like 4 or 3 of them one after other when I killed one, I swear ! After that I haven't played that save file. Okay another expression of the game balance.... (I have now tried cleric and it has gone well. I just beat the death wyvern so hurray for me.) The game is easy as hell against normal enemies thanks to the levels but the major boss enemies are total pain on hardest difficulty or even on easier modes ! NOTICE THIS: I found today that if I crouch, the fire/gas balls of Chaos Serpents won't hit me !!!!! I'll try to investigate more but this really helps defeating them !!! Also Have YOU ever tried the hardest difficulty and beat the game with it ? I honestly want to hear the opinions from the makers. (Try the first bonus level which can be accessed from Seven Portals with a Fighter. NOW that I told the tip evading the chaos serpents' fireballs it might be easy though) ------------------------------------------------- Did You manage to read here all the way or just skipped a little? [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] NOTE !!!!! I do NOT want to Flame K mod2 or its level system!! I enjoy them both very much, thank you, and do not want to critize the makers. I DO understand that game balance isn't easy to make. ANd I'm eager to wait your opinions (assuming you managed to read all [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] ) [ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: Merton ] [ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: Merton ]</p>

Well, I'm not one of the programmers, but I've also played it (on the medium-to-difficult level) all the way in Hexen and far (I guess, I don't know how many levels are there) in Dark Citadel, the expansion pack (Thanks A LOT, friend!!! You know who you are! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ). Anyway, I know that there are some balance problems, but you may find it odd: I think the problems are with the players, and not the enemies. I mean, the players are much more powerful than in normal Hexen, specially the Mage. Sometimes, and when you have high levels, a large group of enemies don't even give you a good fight anymore (use berserk with a 10th level warrior and you will destroy more than a hundred Ettins without taking one hit! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ). And the Mage have a Icon of Defender he can use all the time (the first spell) which will make him undestructable. What I'm trying to say is: the players are much more fun, powerful and versatile now, so you should find new ways to kill you enemies than before. The Heresiarchs problem: yes, that's a big problem. I don't think it's the prettier way to kill a Heresiarch, but I always do it when I don't want to waste much time: try to save as often as you can, hitting him hard (berserking with the Fighter, or using invulnerability and 4th weapon along with Horrible Pain, with the Mage) while he is "open", and saving when he uses the protection magic. This way you can load the game everytime he makes "clone" (hey, this reminds me of a movie...). Of course, you can't let those dark bishops fly too far and spread around, so forget the Heresiarch and kill them while they are being summoned (Fighter, with the sword), or hide and kill them all before attacking the Heresiarch himself (Mage). If you think the original Hexen maps are difficult, you should try the Dark Citadel's ones. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Some of them are really hard, even in normal... Let's just wait for Ramb"The man"Orc, 'cause he is the one who knows about these things (He shall be the one who will bring balance to the Force...I mean, the game. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] )

I don't have the expansion pack. [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img] Might there be any "free" downloads lying somewhere ? [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] The original Hexen was balanced more IHMO. Some enemies always gave a challenge there. And yes the levels make the characters better (which is very good). BUT then the enemies should become tougher. I mean all of them, not just giving extra super power boost to boss enemies so they become nearly invincible. (I say, Heresiarch was invincible on hardest difficulty ! ) And I don't want to use tricks like that because I want a fair win over my enemies. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

First to the title... We've known all along the game has serious balance issues. If you think we haven't tried to do something about it, download KMOD 1.x and try to play it with the Fighter on skill 4 or 5. On skill 3, it was about as hard as the original Hexen on skill 5 (OK, that's not really hard). I tried it back then on skill 5 and at the point where I reached the first Wendigos in the Seven Portals, I had to give up. If anyone manages to kick their icy asses in KMOD 1.x with the Fighter, then I'll acknowledge I'm a stupid Hexen newbie with no idea how to play the game. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Also, the Cleric was too strong in KMOD 1.x. In my estimation, playing KMOD 1.x on skill 3 with the Cleric is like Hexen on skill 1, with the Mage like Hexen on skill 3, with the Fighter like Hexen on skill 5. Talk about balance... One of the most important goals for KMOD 2.x was to have the classes as balanced as possible, which is IMO pretty much achieved. Thanks to some new spells of the Mage and the Berserker (and speed boost for weapons) of the Fighter, now there aren't such differences as before. As for KMOD 2.x, I never had the time to really test it, I played it through with only one class and that with a pre-release version of 2.0 which had a couple of things different (like the HP of Korax). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * An important thing people tend to forget is that KMOD isn't supposed to be just the very same Hexen gameplay with fancy stuff painted on top of it (like Raven did in Hexen II where none of the RPG elements offered any kind of real RPG enhancements, they were pretty much only for the show). KMOD is an RPG mod and that means it plays a bit more like an RPG and a bit less like a pure action game than Hexen did. In an RPG, foes vary greatly, from the puny stuff you don't even have to lift a finger to stomp out to the ones you try to find out for days how to beat at all, even if you use everything at your disposal. While bashing large groups of Ettins or Centaurs might've been something for the Fighter back in Hexen, it's nothing for a Level 8 one in KMOD. OTOH even a Level 10 Fighter has more trouble smashing a Heresiarch than a no-level one had in Hexen. Not to mention we wanted to have the skill levels to be much different than now. Playing KMOD on skill and skill 5 gives a much greater leap than doing the same in Hexen. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Now to the Heresiarch Phenomenon in detail... To give out a spoonful of insider information, this is about how we enhanced the Heresiarch the way it is now: RambOrc: "I want a smarter Heresiarch that can do tricky things." Camper: "Too complicated to code. Don't want to do that." RambOrc: "OK, then to give it at least one new cool effect, give it a random counter that lets it summon a Death Wyvern in every 20th to 50th case or so, instead of a Dark Bishop." (Camper codes this feature because it's but 5 minutes of work. The trouble is, the damned Wyvern gets stuck in the floor when summoned, even trying some tricks can't get it to move around. Would be indeed a fine effect, sure. Yeah.) ... I guess you get the picture. In the end, we decided it to summon another Heresiarch as a fun effect. This also helped us to pull the skill levels even more apart. On skill 1, there's maybe a 1% or 2% chance of a summoned Heresiarch (i.e. you'll have to be VERY unlucky or a VERY poor player to see one), 5% or so on skill 3 and maybe 15% on skill 4/5 (I won't swear these are the exact values, we decided on the values about a year ago and since then I had nothing to do with these numbers. Ask Janis if you want exact numbers). As for strategies on defeating the Heresiarch, here is another bit: Ignore the Bishops ALWAYS if you see the Heresiarch has its defensive spell down. Go after it every time it's defenseless. Once its shield is up, go and kill Bishops until the shield is down again. As for killing the right Heresiarch when there are several, you just need to watch which one summons Bishops and bash only that one and never the others. Once it's finished and you feel like toying with the rest, you can always kill another dozen as they're going to summon new ones again and again, but IMO it's crucial to get rid of the first one ASAP so that you're free to go any time you feel like to. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Crouching... consider this a bug or a cheat, it's that Chaos Serpents (BTW Slaughtaurs too and maybe others as well) aim at your head, most probably becuz that part of your body is always open for shots if you're able to shoot at them while the lower part of your body might be hidden behind a step, a boulder, a shrub or anything. So if you move around in a crouch, these monsters will cause you pain first thing when they get close enough to use their melee attack. As for the Deathkings of the Dark Citadel add-on, if you played Hexen and want to have the same level of challenge in Deathkings, start the game at 2 skill levels lower than you played Hexen. Some people complained it's annoying in Hexen that in certain levels all the time new Ettins teleport in if you wait too long. In Deathkings, Chaos Serpents and Slaughtaurs do the same... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * A last word on game balance. I think it's as good as impossible to take a fully finished and polished game, use its original game flow (OK, with KMOD 2.1 and above you can take some shortcuts becuz you can buy Wings in the shops) and original maps, make it innovative and different, and have a fully balanced gameplay all the time. In Scattered Evil, we'll build maps and create our own gameflow, so balance should be a lot better. While KMOD grew itself out to a highly popular mod (total downloads since last June are approaching 3000) and is standing on its own as one of the very few Hexen mods ever, in its roots its basically a public beta gameplay test for Korax' Heritage (which itself was split into 2 games, Scattered Evil and The Serpent Power). I tried to answer pretty much all Qs on this topic, if I not fully succeeded and skipped something, just put the Q again (or new ones if you have more to ask). [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Wow, cross-posting... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] I even asked some of the stuff from the latest post I not yet had an occasion to read. As for the rest, if all enemies become tougher and you become tougher, you just reach a copy of Hexen where simply all numbers have 2 zeros added at their end. In Scattered Evil, smarter bosses with more special behaviours, tricks and items/spells are planned, thus their HPs won't have to be as high, it'll be more about tactics than brute-force bashing (though that'll be still an option). Regarding Deathkings, there is no free download and I wouldn't encourage that anyway. Deathkings is still to be had for 10 bucks and shipping here or together with Hexen and Heretic for 20 bucks and shipping here.

After playing through four of the five hubs with the fighter, I haven't seen any bugs yet. After getting the third Quietus piece, I haven't needed to use mana again, except maybe for the occasional green mana when I want to kill far away things. I noticed something though. Did someone increase (although slightly) the chance that gold and silver are dropped by the centaurs and bishops? By the end of the first hub, I had around 40 silver. By the second episode I had about 150 (forgot exactly how much). But by the end of the third episode, I had over 600 silver, and by the end of the fourth episode, I had nearly 800 silver (about 150 of that came from Bishops being spawned by four Heresiarchs).

Yes...I got the same problem as Ichor! I?m finishing Castle of Grief with the Fighter@skill 4 and got no bug or inaccuracies, which makes me very frustated, cause nothing will give me more pleasure now than find an HUGE bug(one of those stuckers that stop the game progression), on your beloved patched mod... [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] But we cannot win always... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Well I just started the playtesting half an hour ago and already found a bug (and another one that's a jHexen bug but might be corrected all the same).

Now for the obvious question... What did you find?

Yes, please...! Oh King Master of Beta Testers... Enlight us all with thy omnipresent wisdom... [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Or in common broken english: "RambOrc, where the hell is tha fucking bug you?re mumbling about? And of what nature?" I did?nt fond anything... [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

Yeah! Where is it. About Heresiarch - killing him with fighter now is very easy and fast - activate Icon of defender, Berserk, take unpowered sword and Hurah!!! It can be killed in a minute or so. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

You don't even need the Icon of the Defender. Just use the Berserk right as his reflective shield drops. Then hit him until he uses that spell again (if he uses another spell first, it's even better). By the time you reach the second Heresiarch (Gibbet), your Berserk spell should last longer than his reflective spell, meaning you can still get in a few more really good hits before he uses that spell again or your Berserk wears off. Hit him until he's almost dead, wait until he spawns another Heresiarch, then finish him off. By this time you probably will have collected about 10 - 15 gold bars from the Bishops. Then you can repeat the process. You won't need any mana, and if you're a little patient (and lucky), you'll probably won't need to use a single Quartz Flask for the first Heresiarch. The only problem is that if you want to fight any more than five Heresiarchs, it will take a very long time.

I remember one time at the Constable's Gate with the original DOS version when I had a Krater or 2 and the Quietus and killed the Heresiarch before it got the defensive spell up at all... To business, I started with Deathkings today on skill 3 with the Fighter and had fun in the beginning where I was nearly dead several times and was beating up a bush in the first courtyard to reach the next level so I get a couple more HP becuz I didn't want to open the door to upstairs with a one-digit HP, then made the green bulls fight each other with a couple of Disks in the room behind the waterfall... I opened the entrance to the secret level for the very first time (I found a cool site with instructions on how to find it, LOL), and had a big run under heavy crossfire in Sump when all Stalkers and Slaughtaurs decided I'm their practice target. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Too bad I had no luck in Badlands and Brackenwood, so I gave up... I wonder whether anyone can kill the Wyverns in Brackenwood now with their new fly behaviour... damn Camper for introducing it. At any rate, Deathkings got even more difficult than before... I had the idea last year to make Hexen savegames that were saved in the Dark Crucible exportable into Deathkings so that you start out with a level 12-15 character (and reach level 16 after 1000 EXP, level 17 after another 2000, etc). It'd make Deathkings definitely more playable. OTOH it might make the game too easy, dunno. I know only that it felt too difficult on skill 3 (!) with the Fighter.

Oh yes, you wanted to hear about some bugs, huh? [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] For one, if you are berserking and you pick up a health vial, you get 10 HP all the same. OTOH once the berserker effect wears off, your HP is halved and thus you effectively get only 5 HP for a vial taken in Berserker mode. Same goes for quartz flasks and mystic urns. IMO all these healing artifacts should add double the HP when the Fighter is berserking. The jHexen bug is something we corrected for KMOD messages back in November 2001 or so. If you play KMOD 1.x and walk over a mana cube with the Fighter on level 1-4 and then pull down your console, you'll see the "you can't use mana yet" message 50 times or so in a row. It's been fixed for KMOD 2.0 but I just saw the same error with some original Hexen messages. In the first Deathkings map if you go to the waterfall, it says "the waterfall is blocked". 50 times. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

I fond one... I fond a bug...a big bullit bug... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] I?m still unable to conjure white bunnies with the Fighter at level 15...you must fix this, RambOrc, can?t fight Korax without white bunnies all around me... [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

What are you talking about? I killed them all, with the Mage first, and then with the Fighter! In fact, when I was done killing them, I was hungry for more! (I'm not kidding). I'm not saying it's easy, but if it was possible for me, then it should be for you all. You just have to berserk, wait untill you see it, an then charge, hitting like a madman (with the sword), untill one of you is dead. Then you have to heal yourself and wait for the Rage to be full again, and do the same for the others. With the Mage, it was too easy, and that's why the Defender magic should be banished or appear later, because you just have to use it, and then find the Wyverns, attacking with the 3rd weapons (costs no mana), and it will die before the magic wears off... Very disapointing...The little dragons don't have a chance this way. [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img] Anyway, I was playing much ahead than you went, so there can't be any major balance problem a experienced player can't pass with some perseverance. It isn't any easy, though. I just had to stop, since I had that gts message error which wouldn't let me continue.. [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img]

I just found a bug. It seems that banished enemies do not drop things. I also noticed that you added fire damage to the red wand. I was firing away at the trees in map 1, minding my own business, when I switched to the red wand when I got it, and....BOOM! heheheh.

I just discovered one of the strangest bugs that I have ever seen, ranking right up there with the Great Pyramid of Leftover Mage Bodies. I wondered if you had tinkered with the Possession spell some, namely what would happen if the monster you possessed or your old body was turned into a pig. If the monster was changed, then you simply return to your own body, and the monster becomes a pig. No problems here. The real fun begins when your old body is turned into a pig while you're having fun elsewhere. You return to your body as a pig, leaving the monster the way it was, but the view changes dramatically, almost to the point of being nauseous. I'm not sure exactly what happens, but in Hexen 2 and Quake, something similar happens when you set the FOV (Field of View) to a higher number other than the normal 90. What I'm seeing here is somewhere around 130. Changing maps will not help. The only way to reverse this is when you possess another monster. Here's some screenshots in a zip file that will show you what I mean.

Health pickups while berseking - not a problem. Messages problem - they are printed by script. I'm afraif there's nothing I can do with it. Simplest soluion is disable echoing messages into console, console variable name is echoMsg of something like that (forgot the exact name for this wariable). When unposessing, there's a FOV effect, which somehow is messed up when morphing. Will check it out. BTW I can kill Heresiarch with fighter so fast, that he didn't spawn any bishops at all. [ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Janis Legzdinsh ]</p>

I know that sentence from some place...Shakespear? Otelo is'nt it? BTW, its a nightmare to kill those Wyverns at Death Kings with only Timon?s Axe...I quit... Another thing, the walls at Menelkir?s Tomb are totally messed up...holes, lack of textures...it?s a jHexen thing is?nt it? [ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: J.P. ]</p>

Please, this is not a bug list thread. Feel free to make a new thread for off topic conversation. (This board needs more threads anyway [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] ) ------------------------------------------------ I mentioned before that I wanted a fair fight. Now that I played again I remembered I have pretty much used every tweak/bug to my advantage there is in the game. So I'm hypocrete or however you spell it. (Like ettins can't walk stairs well...) ----------------------------------------------- And about that crouch thing.... AS RambOrc said it indeed works. You won't believe me! [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] I just today started a new game on hardest diffulty as a fighter and now I'm facing the death wyvern. And yes, I completed the bonus levels too. With crouching the game becomes so easy it feels like cheating.... ------------------------------------ Btw Yesterday when I was facing the heresiarch on medium skill as a mage, the battle went really well and I killed it easily but when it died the bastard threw those magic cubes from his head and the killed me ! (I didn't have the defense spell on.) Is this possible or was it probably instead the common boncing fireballs that got a sneak attack at me `? ----------------------------------------------- And last word about the balance....... Can I become a beta tester ? (assuming you don't need much more than ability to play, a comp and modem to download) So the more the better, right ? [ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Merton ]</p>

Those three mana type cubes that orbit over his head are released when he dies. These aren't your typical mana cubes. After a few minutes they will explode. Of course, you should try not to be anywhere near them when they do go off.

"And there was much bragging about great heroic deeds, each tavern hero making up bigger and bolder stories about never committed deeds." [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

JP: that quote wasn't Shakespeare, it was invented by me on the fly. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] The missing textures in all levels can be solved by running GLBSP (included in KMOD 2.1 and above). Merton: crouching feels of course like cheating, as it IS cheating. It's an unwanted side effect, not a feature. Crouching is anyway just a fun addition in KMOD and you shouldn't use it for anything else than going to low grilles and taking a peek (like in the Effluvium). If you want to become beta tester, send a mail to <a href="mailto:dj_jl@korax-heritage.com">dj_jl@korax-heritage.com</a> .

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I wonder whether anyone can kill the Wyverns in Brackenwood now with their new fly behaviour... damn Camper for introducing it.

I think those raven guys actually wanted it to fly the way it did in original Hexen, because it's way of flight is much more unique than the other flying creatures. Plus it emphasises that it can REALLY Fly, and not Defying the laws of Physics like those afrits and Dark Bishops. Plus I think that new flying behavior makes them just a little easier, on account of if you're strafing around them in a circle and firing at them, they'll usually stick to the same spot, and they aim at you WHERE YOU ARE, rather than WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO BE. But that's probably something that's been plaguing the Doom Engine for Years...

I guess it's time to reveal a big insider secret... the "new Wyvern move pattern" is nothing but that of the Afrit. As for the why, when testing the pre-1.0 KMOD, that damned lizard got stuck in the ceiling of the cave all the time and Camper found no way to fix it so he went down the easy way with copying the Afrit's AI. It has some funny additions to gameplay and as long as you don't know what I just told here, you might find it a cool feature and an enhancement over the original Hexen. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] As to your prob with aiming AI, don't blame the DOOM engine, many later engines and games had the same prob. Indeed, Unreal was the very first game where you couldn't beat a slow monster by running around in circles becuz the Titan calculated your running path and threw the rocks to where you'd be when the rocks arrive there and not to where you were when he threw the rocks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RambOrc: [QB]JP: that quote wasn't Shakespeare, it was invented by me on the fly. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] The missing textures in all levels can be solved by running GLBSP (included in KMOD 2.1 and above). Well, RambOrc, you?ve fooled me good...I could swear I?ve seen that somewhere else...You?ve got talent kid, I think you?ve missed your real vocation...you should be writing drama epics, not mastering gaming networks... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] The missing textures were fixed by GLBSP alright...I think it should run in an automatic way, when launching KMod for the first time, dont you think? It fixes a lot of things, and if I missed it, others can fall in the same mistake too... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Merton ]</p>

I thought that flight pattern looked suspiciously familiar. I haven't started playing through the game with the mage yet, but I think there's a very easy way to beat it. Just lead him close to the ground somewhere, stand right in front of him, fire up the ol' defense spell, and let the Death Wyvern do all the work for you.

I just beat the Heresiarch on Hardest difficulty as a mage ! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Good thing he has the defense spell.... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Oh and it had summoned at least three other heresiarchs. I bet it's near impossible to nail it with a fighter or a cleric on hardest skill level. btw RambOrc, I sent yesterday that mail but still no reply.

Back at high school I've been doing a lot of poetry and some short prosaic works. I even won a 2nd place at a literary competition. I wrote it all in Hungarian though so no need asking for it. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] My English isn't good enough to create any serious literature... last winter someone told me I should try all the same, so I once took up the pen and scribbled down a couple of lines, here if you're really as masochistic as to listen to it: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>In the last rays of a once mighty star a blood red dwarf of a dying sun The scattered corpses like so many broken dolls torn asunder and cast aside by cruelty of fate and the gods<hr></blockquote> p.s Merton, what mail do you mean?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>I just beat the Heresiarch on Hardest difficulty as a mage ! Good thing he has the defense spell.... Oh and it had summoned at least three other heresiarchs. I bet it's near impossible to nail it with a fighter or a cleric on hardest skill level. <hr></blockquote> I was able to find an EXTREMELY easy (but patience consuming) way to destry a Heresiarch with any character without having to use mana, quartz flasks, or ANYTHING else but your 1rst weapon months ago. Are you listening? [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] first run in front of the Heresiarch, and taunt him to follow you, and run outside. Run towards your right, where the path leading down to the courtyard on the other side of the level. Make sure Heresiarch's on your Tail! Run into the left corner of the room (next to the staircase) and wait for him to reach your position. Once he's there, Jump down into the staircase. Go up just enough so you can hit him with your first weapon from down there, but he can't hit you. Then, just keep repeatedly hitting him. Eventually, once he tries to form dark bishops, you'll notice that they don't fully spawn, and the Heresiarch is still alone. Don't ask why that is, Just be Thankful for it! Just keep patiently striking him until he eventually gets destroyed. He might manage to spawn 1 or 2 Disciples, but that's usually about it. I've only tried this with the cleric, I don't know how the mage will work out, since his projectiles impact the wall. If it doesn't work, the joke's on you, 'cuz it's a Lot easier to kill him with a fighter or a cleric after all [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] If you REALLY want it, I could tell you my pattented strategy for the Heresiarch in gibbet [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

This is nothing but abusing one of the limitations of the original DOOM engine. The same you can do with most bosses throughout DOOM/Heretic/Hexen, including the Cyberdemon and D'Sparil. I fail to see where the fun factor in this is... I once know someone who played through D/H/H this way and was even proud of it... [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

There's a much better way to do that. Instead of waiting until he reaches the ledge, wait until he reaches a certain spot in the long, narrow hall. There is a silent, almost secret teleporter that sends you from one side of the map to the other. First go through to the other side, then wait a few moments until you believe he has reached the teleport destination spot (you won't actually be able to see him, so you'll have to guess). Then teleport back. If you did it right, you'll land right on him and he will die instantly. Just watch out for those boucing cubes. I wonder if you get experience for that...

Now here's an idea how to get rid of a 50'000 HP monstrosity with just one well-placed kick... [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] We should add a UT-like translocator into KMOD so that you can telefrag big monsters. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] (j/k)

I suppose you don't wanna know how I kill the Heresiarch in Gibbet then, huh? Let me just get one little hint in, OK? *HINT* There's a reason you find a wings of wraith where the Heresiarch is and there's also a reason for those pits (or wells, or whatever they are) with the hanged bodies hanging over them next to the Pooty throne and the reason for the Wings of Wrath and the reason for the pits are pretty much the same reason *HINT* [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] That wasn't too obvious, was it? [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] probably. And there's no Telefrag in there, so my strategy is the easiest, but like Ramborc pretty much said, it isn't very honorable.

Actually, that telefrag idea won't work anyway, since the Heresiarch is too big to fit down those stairs.

Not only isn't it honorable, it must be extremely boring as well. Tetris should give you a better adrenaline boost than killing a Heresiarch this way. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Yes it is EXREMELY Boring, and I just discovered those cheap strategies when I was fighting them in your Mod. And Do you know why? I think you can guess this one off. I was playing on Pope (level 5) difficulty and the Heresiarch just kept creating dozenz of heresiarch's and Disciples who each created Dozens more Heresiarch's and Disciples. I was at a loss, I was beaten. I had no other alternative but to think of an angle around this struggle, rather than attack him head on like I did when he was a weakling in norm-Hexen. And eventually, I came up with that stuff.