After a hard beginning at university, finally got a little break to see what is going on around. Was intrigued by this movie's theme, and I like this Owen guy, so I thought I could buy a book I needed and catch a movie at the same time. There are a bunch of good but not so deep reviews out there, but none of them, even the ones with only good words about it, makes this justice, because it's one of those movies that, if you are open to the subject somehow, it will strike you deeply, but leave the ordinary viewer probably unharmed... I won't be telling you what and why, but since I reckon most of the active members here are people concerned in some degree with world's current affairs, I think this fiction piece fits perfectly in the topic, portraiting social conflicts very alive today but in a VERY close paranoid driven reality. To me it was mostly shocking because I'm an avid but reluctant viewer of many incredible real-life documentaries (sp) adn this movie for some reason made me remember a lot of real brutality I have already seen from afar, that's why I say a movie like this will only be appreciated in it's entirity if you are somehow open to the issues concerned in it, even if indirectly, as it's a fictional story with it's own objectives and dramatic plots (rather than pure acts of denounce real docus are intended for). Anyway, I think even mr. RambOrc would enjoy this hard movie (even though I know you intentionaly miss 99% of the cinema seasons), it's not a movie you wanna see with your friends for a laugh or for romantic purpouses, it's incredibly dark if you look it from certain points of view (specially if you are into anthropology, sociology, bio-ethics, that kind of "stuff"). <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> It's worth your time. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

I like your comments on it (even though you actually said close to nothing about the movie <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->), so maybe I'll check it out when I have time. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I rarely watch movies these days, the last one I saw was a few months ago, about Beowolf. Excellent landscapes, that's probably the highlight of that movie for me. Actually, the one movie I'd really like to see is Shortbus. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> P.S.: Mago you're not alone with university being insane ... since I left high school my average has dropped 20%. <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: -->

I hear you... In my first year I was set to test myself and went 110% into it, learned a lot and had some nice grades (but I also had the student purse to back me up), since then my mother got into some troubles and there was no more study help, had to work part-time and then it was hell-hole time, because I wouldn't let my expectations go, but I would NEVER be able to keep my grades and my potential to the healthy maximun. Only this year after some tough batles with myself, which I lost BTW (aswel as some ten years of productive life-time), I decided to brake the insanity and work my own rythim, split the last year in two, will take me more time but at least I'll have time to study long-time delayed subjects I NEEDED to get involved with, and the fact I never had time ann wasted years was cosuming me to the bone... You obviously know this, but university isn't a ticket to the high-level professional world, it's about knowledge, finding your area of talent in which you can mostly contribute to whatever aspect of life you feel you can. That's all I'm interested today, couldn't care less about professional chances or competetitiveness (sp), maybe I'll regret it in the future, but there's no way back for me now. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

As for the movie, believe me, knowing a lot about it will only spoil the impact, I don't even recommend watching the trailers. I didn't, only saw some small ads and was instantly interested, and just went there expecting a good movie. It surprised me because it was much deeper than I thought it would be by the premise. But for more info, just head to the official site, there are some nice photos, a trailer and the story: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.childrenofmen.net/">http://www.childrenofmen.net/</a><!-- m -->

Yeah sounds cool, though based on the abstract it's not completely original ... though I'm more than willing Mago to trust your informed opinion instead of a blank advertisement's. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> As for university, here in Canada pretty much every year in 8th grade we're told that university/college holds the key to our future, so if we don't go to either we'll spend the rest of our lives hungry and cold on the street. Nothing but a load of propaganda that is, but the trouble is that every senior high school student panics on what to do after they graduate because none of them knows what they want to do as a living yet. There's just so many options out there (literally thousands), that to just pick one is impossible. That's why every year in university for my electives I'm taking 1st year courses again, just to diversify my learnings. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Movie seem to reflect current demographical problems of western (and not only western) society, when people do not wish to have children, but to have fun and free life instead, or career, or whatever.

[quote="Crimson Wizard":2oguvi1r]Movie seem to reflect current demographical problems of western (and not only western) society, when people do not wish to have children, but to have fun and free life instead, or career, or whatever. Why is that a problem?

they turn gay

<!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> Homophobes. Learn to be open-minded to others' preferences.

[quote="The 4th Class":1cghkfst][quote="Crimson Wizard":1cghkfst]Movie seem to reflect current demographical problems of western (and not only western) society, when people do not wish to have children, but to have fun and free life instead, or career, or whatever. Why is that a problem? They'll loose their influence in world eventually. Will be overtaken by "lower" nations. But yes, you are right, no problem at all. One race dies, another comes. I can only hope new one will be more wise and eager to find out the real intention of existance. [quote="The 4th Class":1cghkfst] Homophobes. Learn to be open-minded to others' preferences. If it is so, you should learn to be open-minded for the preferences of homophobes, no? <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Secondly, what is the meaning of this "open-mindness"? To fall under the influence of "free love" and "overall toleration" propaganda? no, thanks. There are things that may be tolerated, and there are things that shouldn't, in my humble and honest opinion. Afaik there are two sorts of homosexuality: physiological and psychological, if I may say so. First is a natural deviation, second is a pervertion. Currently we seem to be unable to cure first type, since we do not know how, besides nobody seem to care to investigate this. Though we may cure those in the second group. Unfortunately, certain politic forces find it beneficial to spread the culture of "free love", including homosexuality. This (and not only this) makes people corrupted by unlimited freedom, weaker, more influencable. Easy to control.

[quote="Crimson Wizard":3ucmn40v]They'll loose their influence in world eventually. Will be overtaken by "lower" nations. But yes, you are right, no problem at all. One race dies, another comes. I can only hope new one will be more wise and eager to find out the real intention of existance. Well, the world is overpopulated enough with the world as it is, which is indirectly a side-effect of the richer nations' greed and selfishness (PS RambOrc this does not exclude Western Europe <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->). Though this isn't a new phenomenon, richer people have been wasting their resources throughout time. [quote="Crimson Wizard":3ucmn40v]If it is so, you should learn to be open-minded for the preferences of homophobes, no? <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> This sound like "You should respect those who hate blacks and asians." <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> [quote="Crimson Wizard":3ucmn40v]Secondly, what is the meaning of this "open-mindness"? To fall under the influence of "free love" and "overall toleration" propaganda? no, thanks. There are things that may be tolerated, and there are things that shouldn't, in my humble and honest opinion. The meaning of "open-mindedness" is to respect other people's preferences, so long as those preferences do not cause any harm to others. You're right though, things like rape, murder, and religious slams are unacceptable (this includes atheists liquidating christianity BTW). [quote="Crimson Wizard":3ucmn40v]Afaik there are two sorts of homosexuality: physiological and psychological, if I may say so. First is a natural deviation, second is a pervertion. Currently we seem to be unable to cure first type, since we do not know how, besides nobody seem to care to investigate this. Though we may cure those in the second group. Unfortunately, certain politic forces find it beneficial to spread the culture of "free love", including homosexuality. This (and not only this) makes people corrupted by unlimited freedom, weaker, more influencable. Easy to control. Sorry Ivan, but I disagree with you 100%. Homosexuality isn't a "deviation" or a "perversion" (as many fundamentalists would have you believe), in fact homosexuality is completely natural. I'm sure there's some genetic factor that causes it, but changing that isn't "curing" anything - it's only "changing" orientation. ...Or is somebody just a little bit jealous? <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->

[quote="The 4th Class":2lhw8tt2][quote="Crimson Wizard":2lhw8tt2]If it is so, you should learn to be open-minded for the preferences of homophobes, no? <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> This sound like "You should respect those who hate blacks and asians." <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> I should quote your next sentence here <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> lol [quote="The 4th Class":2lhw8tt2]The meaning of "open-mindedness" is to respect other people's preferences, so long as those preferences do not cause any harm to others. But still there's interesting topic for reflection: what sort of harm ought to be meant here (e.g. even a presence of homosexual people may harm homophobes by making them mad and nervous), isn't it logical to have right to dislike "others" along with right to be "another" et cetera. A good source of paradoxes. [quote="The 4th Class":2lhw8tt2] Sorry Ivan, but I disagree with you 100%. Homosexuality isn't a "deviation" or a "perversion" (as many fundamentalists would have you believe), in fact homosexuality is completely natural. I'm sure there's some genetic factor that causes it, but changing that isn't "curing" anything - it's only "changing" orientation. It may be a question of terminology, but what I have described IS completely natural, as every deviation and pervertion. And, yes, natural homosexuality seem to come from genetic factor. As for "changing orientation"... I suppose the general question is in the natural sense of things. Is there any sense of a male having sex with another male? I doubt it. While there IS a certain sense in male having sex with female since it leads to a new life. Probably this ananlogy would insult homosexuals greatly, but imaging a man, who, under an influence of some "genetic factor", walks on hands and works by legs (at least tries). Ofcourse it is natural. But does it has any sense? [quote="The 4th Class":2lhw8tt2] ...Or is somebody just a little bit jealous? <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> Ugh? No thanks. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

I think we all should respect each others believes and preferences if they don't directly affect our own believes and preferences, right? As for disturbing movies and things in the world, there are many of them, you can talk about racism and about homophobe and other particular similar things, we all have the right to be heard, but we don't have the right to hurt others because of this, that's my two cents on all this <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.

Trying not to bore you guys to death, here go some points: - Fertility problem: I would say the biggest issue concerning today's birth rate in highly developed countries is the aging of the overall population. This means that as the general population get older (and thus become non-productive), and the working population decreases (in the sense that there is more people getting "out" of productive status than people getting in), the concern is that the country will loose competitiveness in the global economy scene aswell as face BIG difficulties in mantaining it's own financial structure "healthy" (as it is seen today) - namely being unable to pay retirement and social care bills when there isn't enough taxes income, put simply. The answer range from encouraging young couple to, erm... "couple" and have more kids, to enouraging immigration (yes, this might sound dreadful to most uneducated people out there but a lot of european countries are actually counting on immigrants' working population to balance the internal economy in the near future, like Portugal, thus saving our daddies retirements <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Just being mean, that's all). Of course in the movie this isn't the case, as it was never explained why, in the ENTIRE world, all women became infertile in a sudden time-frame. It isn't that absurd though as it is known women do not ovulate for as long as the body conditions are not "right" (periods of dry or lack of food, etc), just like other mammals. Maybe in the movie it was also some kind of terrible genetical evolution step that doomed the human kind to extinction, but that's not the point of the movie, anyways. - Preconceit: I would add that the point in being open-minded is very simple, and probably comes from science rational views: all of our opinions and views of the world in which we firmly believe and to which we act upon are always a product of a certain context, and history has proved time and time again that what we may think is totally right today is likely and almost ALWAYS bound to be proven wrong tomorrow by a more elucidated view. So it's simple, if you want to keep your ignorance level to a minimun, you will want to be as much "open-minded" as possible, about everything. Homosexuality is common in many highly developed animal species including humans, from my limited knowledge it serves many purpouses in social relationships and individual's emotional grouth (both for males and females). What we would call "chronic" homosexuality in the cases of persons who have natural atraction to the same sex, is already proven to have biological origin and thus cannot be considered a pervertion in any way. I'm no expert obviously but I do tend to be offended when I hear it's "unnatural" and "wrong" to be homosexual because it means the person cannot break through his cultural baggage and has chosen the easy way of agreeing with the majority (not saying the case here, just saying in general). If you are NOT attracted to the same sex, ok, but if you are OFFENDED by homosexuality it means your view is influenced by moral and ethical poisitions that by the very definition of it, are NOT "natural" as morality in any of it's forms is a creation of social beings like humans, and like I said, is bound to be different tomorrow, for the better ot worse (according to each person's beliefs). Sorry for the long post, just expressing my opinions, I know it's hard to read so much from a not so bright person as myself, but... <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

Mago, you bring excellent points. Yes, the developed world has births rates so low it can't sustain itself without immigration. Though I think WHY it's so low is because children are too expensive: you have to dedicate minimum 18 years to feed them, clothe them, nourish their interests, and send them to school. So thus young couples have fewer and fewer kids. Perhaps why some people are offended by homosexuality is because it grosses them out? They think it's wrong because to them, it just doesn't feel right. That could be another possibility. Firebrand I think you got it bang on. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> So Crimson Wizard I'll respect your homophobia, just don't tell the two bodybuilder lovers holding hands on the street what you said about being genetically programmed to walk on your hands. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> [quote="Crimson Wizard":1lx4cxd9]Is there any sense of a male having sex with another male? DUH! Simply to enjoy having sex. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

so, the conclusion is that if you want to make a topic boring, just bash some random crap <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> btw, silly jokes don't make me a homophobe. Puking when i see two bodybuilders lovers holding hands on the street does <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> and i found funny that when i saw the link, it says that it's release si in december

^^^ You bet, currently a lot of us tend to express their FULL dieas whenever there's some point of interest, maybe this isn't the right place (it's a TC forum after all) but speaking for myself I think it's triesome to speak of philosophy in a certain forum, then soccer in another, then school in another, then music in another, etc, etc, etc... I just resume my opinions here which is one of the few places I currently go in the net. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> As for the movie: Just after I realised that for some reason, they chose the 25 december date to premiere in the US?!?!?! It's as extremely strange date, but they must have their reasons. There's a site with the dates for a lot of countries, in England it began in late September, here in Portugal it began 24 November, in Switzerland and South America I think it begins mid-October, don't know about Canada though, but it must be the same as US? So you still got wait a lot...

Well, I just got back from the cinema watching this movie - real great one! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Some parts really moved me (Ki was beautiful in the barn), and it just goes to show humans are one species, not just a blanket for the many races and cultures. I recommend this movie to anyone who is fascinated with societies, cultures, and humanitarianism. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

[quote="The 4th Class":5wsnak9p]Well, I just got back from the cinema watching this movie - real great one! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Some parts really moved me (Ki was beautiful in the barn), and it just goes to show humans are one species, not just a blanket for the many races and cultures. I recommend this movie to anyone who is fascinated with societies, cultures, and humanitarianism. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Hehe, seems you saw from the same perspective as me. Nice to see someone else also enjoyed it, most people I recommended to go watch here simply didn't or plain simply didn't seem to understand the sub-layers beneath the fiction world scenario.